Innovations in forensics
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CORDIScovery podcast- Episode #24 - Forensics and evidence collection
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:10:05 - 00:00:16:03
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery.
00:00:16:05 - 00:00:37:03
Abigail Acton
Hello and welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. Today we are taking a look at innovations in evidence collection and what is being done to help detectives, witnesses and legal professionals in criminal cases. Do eyewitnesses from different cultures express their evidence in the same way? What is the influence of cross cultural factors in criminal investigations?
00:00:37:05 - 00:01:00:00
Abigail Acton
What can be done to turn around the extremely low rate of successfully prosecuted rape cases? And what can gaming technology bring to forensic archeology? Listen on to find out. Our three guests today are ideally placed to tell us about the latest advances that are helping to refine criminal investigations. Their projects have all been supported by the EU Horizon 2020 program.
00:01:00:02 - 00:01:13:00
Abigail Acton
Annelies Vredeveldt is associate professor at the Faculty of Law at the VU University, Amsterdam. She investigates psychology in the courtroom from how eyewitnesses remember crimes to detecting lies in suspect statements. Welcome, Annelies.
00:01:13:01 - 00:01:14:07
Annelies Vredeveldt
Thanks. Hi, everyone.
00:01:14:09 - 00:01:28:02
Abigail Acton
Dante Abate is an associate researcher at the Cyprus Institute. His various areas of interest include the application of digital and nondestructive technologies for the identification and documentation of historic crime scenes. Hello, Dante.
00:01:28:03 - 00:01:30:04
Dante Abate
Hi, there. Pleasure to be here.
00:01:30:06 - 00:01:41:08
Abigail Acton
Benjamin Corgier here is currently research and development director at AXO Science, a biotech company specializing in molecular biology and innovative technologies for forensics. Welcome, Benjamin.
00:01:41:10 - 00:01:43:18
Benjamin Corgier
Hi. Hello, everyone. Nice to be there.
00:01:43:20 - 00:02:02:24
Abigail Acton
Nice to have you. Annelies I'm going to turn to you first, if I may. The “Beyond WeirdWitness” project set out to better understand the different ways people process and recount their memories. Annelies, You wanted to design and test evidence based interview guidelines as well. Why is this work needed and why the name “beyond weird witnesses”?
00:02:03:01 - 00:02:27:17
Annelies Vredeveldt
It's a good question. So why it is needed is that nowadays more and more witnesses are testifying in cross-cultural settings. So you can think about international criminal trials, which often include people from various countries around the world, and then judges and lawyers from different countries. You can think about asylum interviews where people want to have to flee their country.
00:02:27:19 - 00:03:11:23
Annelies Vredeveldt
But even in national police interviews, you could have cross-cultural differences from multicultural societies. So it is needed because we know that cultural differences influence memory and communication. Yet we know very little about what's happening there. Why is it called Beyond? WEIRD witnesses. WEIRD in this case stands for Western Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic societies. And research has shown that 96% of participants in psychological studies are from these WEIRD societies, whereas only 12% of the world population qualifies as weird.
00:03:12:00 - 00:03:17:18
Annelies Vredeveldt
So that's why what makes it weird? So about 88% of the world population, we actually know very little.
00:03:17:20 - 00:03:36:18
Abigail Acton
Right. So there's been a real kind of disproportionate focus and a large number. Well, a large, as you just said, a large proportion of people who might be implicated in this kind of scenario. We haven't really understood much about what the differences are and how that manifests itself. Yes. Okay. So what groups are you studying and why did you choose those particular groups?
00:03:36:24 - 00:03:58:05
Annelies Vredeveldt
So in my project, I focused mostly on African population in sub-Saharan sub-Saharan African populations. And the reason is, well, first of all, you have to choose. You have to select a certain part of the world. And, of course, Africa is huge and has so many cultures. But what made me choose it is that on the one hand, it's very underrepresented in psychological studies.
00:03:58:05 - 00:04:16:10
Annelies Vredeveldt
So hardly any psychological research has been done in Africa or with African people, whereas African countries are actually overrepresented or very much well represented in international tribunals or asylum seeker cases. So there's a mismatch there between what's been studied and what's actually relevant to purchase.
00:04:16:12 - 00:04:20:09
Abigail Acton
What's actually needed, and which communities did you look at most closely in Africa?
00:04:20:12 - 00:04:43:22
Annelies Vredeveldt
So there's three subprojects in my bigger project. One is on police interviews in South Africa. So we're looking at serious crime witnesses in South Africa. And I collected interviews there with the South African police collaboration about ten years ago, already on a different project, actually. And then I figured I found I saw that a lot of these interviews were cross-cultural.
00:04:43:24 - 00:05:24:03
Annelies Vredeveldt
80% of them were with witnesses and interviewers from different culture within South Africa. For those of you who don't know, South Africa has 11 official languages and many different subgroups. And I noticed some cross-cultural communication issues and cultural differences there. So I wanted to study those more closely. And then I added two other projects. One is on the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, where you see a lot of witnesses and victims from Rwanda testifying to all kinds of international judges, mostly Western judges, where you also have some anecdotes, some stories about where it might go wrong, but no systematic review, which is what we're doing.
00:05:24:07 - 00:05:37:12
Annelies Vredeveldt
And the third group is looking at asylum seekers from Africa who come into Western countries and have to explain to a Western immigration official why they deserve asylum, what happened to them, why they're persecuted.
00:05:37:14 - 00:05:47:22
Abigail Acton
So that's absolutely fascinating. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've actually found? Do you have any anecdotes for us where you can see that the cross-cultural impact is really coming into the interplay there?
00:05:48:01 - 00:06:11:11
Annelies Vredeveldt
Yeah, absolutely. So I mentioned international tribunals and these anecdotes that are going on there. One anecdote is that there was this witness in a trial who was describing how several people were murdered, and it was very vivid descriptions of what happened. And at one point, the lawyer was something attorney and the witness said, yeah, I'm not sure because I ran away before the murder started.
00:06:11:13 - 00:06:29:23
Annelies Vredeveldt
And then it turned out, which nobody knew. That's actually what all the descriptions were, what he had heard from his brother. But in his culture, describing your brother's memories is the same as describing your own memories. So the source of the information was completely misunderstood by the lawyers and judges.
00:06:30:03 - 00:06:37:05
Abigail Acton
That's a fantastic example. It's a very concrete example. Really very interesting. Any others that you can think of that spring to mind from what you've been coming across?
00:06:37:11 - 00:07:00:19
Annelies Vredeveldt
Yeah. So another one is how trauma is expressed and experienced. So of course, a lot of these witnesses have been traumatized by these horrible experiences. But in some cultures, so in most Western cultures, we would express trauma in psychological symptoms like depression or anxiety. In a lot of other cultures, they would express this trauma traumatic reactions in physical symptoms.
00:07:00:19 - 00:07:12:16
Annelies Vredeveldt
So, for instance, pain in the stomach or being really dizzy. And if people don't recognize that as trauma, then they can also not accommodate for making sure that you don't retraumatize victims.
00:07:12:21 - 00:07:21:05
Abigail Acton
Right. Absolutely. Okay. That's that's great. That's very interesting. And how do you hope that what you're discovering now will be used by people responsible for collecting evidence in the future?
00:07:21:07 - 00:08:00:12
Annelies Vredeveldt
So I hope to create awareness for for starters. So, of course, most people will already suspect that there are cultural differences, but exactly what those differences could look like. So, for instance, not clearly stating the source or incorrectly stating the source of the information, and if investigators know about that, they can really probe for what is actually the source of that information, or as if they're not aware of it, they just they just assume that it is what they say, but also looking for any signs of trauma, for instance, and also learning how to deal with traumatized victims or witnesses and for judges, it's really important that the evaluation of the testimony is also informed
00:08:00:12 - 00:08:16:22
Annelies Vredeveldt
by cultural knowledge. So, for instance, if a witness keeps looking away, keeps avoiding their case, Western judges might interpret that as that they're lying. But in the other culture, that might be seen as a sign of respect. So you need to know that in order to actually appreciate and evaluate it.
00:08:16:24 - 00:08:28:02
Abigail Acton
Absolutely. To determine what's going on. Thank you very much, Annelies. That was very beautifully explained. I appreciate it. It's very interesting work. Does anyone have any questions or observations? Yeah. Benjamin.
00:08:28:02 - 00:08:39:21
Benjamin Corgier
Yes, I have a question for you, Annelies. If you observed within the same culture, is some variation in the way people report what they saw. Is there a high variation inside a single person?
00:08:40:01 - 00:08:57:10
Annelies Vredeveldt
That's a very good question. So it actually starts with What do you mean by culture? This is the big question in my research. In the same culture, what is the same culture? If you say South Africa as a culture, then definitely because there are so many different cultures within South Africa. So then, yes, there are so many differences.
00:08:57:15 - 00:09:21:22
Annelies Vredeveldt
But even within what you might consider the same culture is of course the culture. There are also individual differences, just like there are in our own culture. So I might be more likely to express something with a lot of confidence than someone else who's from my own culture. So individual differences are very relevant as well. But our project really focuses on trying to get more D average cultural differences between cultures.
00:09:21:22 - 00:09:27:19
Abigail Acton
You know, the overarching stuff that really stands out. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. Any other questions? Yes, Dante?
00:09:27:21 - 00:09:45:17
Dante Abate
No, actually, I was wondering, do you have an experience in collecting evidence in the war scenario? I mean, now war is a kind of hot topic in Europe, unfortunately. And I was wondering if a witness can be affected by the traumatic environment that is surrounding them.
00:09:45:19 - 00:10:12:23
Annelies Vredeveldt
That's a very good question. So I've never been to a war zone myself, so I don't have experience with that. My PhD student actually did go to a war zone recently, and he went there to mostly to help the local authorities figure out how they should be interviewing witnesses and victims. And then there's two goals, of course. One is get the best complete, accurate testimony and the other is not retraumatize victims and witnesses by the interview itself.
00:10:13:03 - 00:10:28:06
Annelies Vredeveldt
And yeah, so the environment is definitely very relevant, of course, because if you are in a still in a very traumatized state, very emotional state that is going to interfere with how you remember it and that's going to hamper your reporting of what happened.
00:10:28:08 - 00:10:50:19
Abigail Acton
Thank you very much, analyst. Thank you. I'm going to turn now to Dante. Dante, the Dig for Archeology project aim to change the way in which buried and concealed evidence is analyzed at crime scenes through new technologies such as green screens and latest virtual reality headsets. Technology from gaming, engineering and computing. So I just want to ask you, can you tell us a little bit about how forensic archeology is changing?
00:10:50:20 - 00:10:51:09
Dante Abate
Well.
00:10:51:11 - 00:11:22:17
Dante Abate
Israeli archeologists, additional disciplines. Years ago, archeologists were going on site, doing sketches, recording manually, whatever it was on site, ranging from stratigraphic excavation to artifacts to the construct itself landscape. They are plug and forensic archeology that are changing because technology is changing and is getting a bit too. Let's say, support to the humanities. We can see new technologies to do arts surveys, so we can see new technologies to do nondestructive analysis.
00:11:22:19 - 00:11:43:09
Dante Abate
So the tradeoff is that the new technologies are coming, but also new expect these are needed. And most of the time law enforcement are lacking these expert theses because it's not their job. It's what they're calling the pawn specialists like archeologists, that they are in the field and they do out of politeness.
00:11:43:11 - 00:11:50:14
Abigail Acton
So in what sort of context would you apply the technologies that you use? How does this work in practice?
00:11:50:16 - 00:12:21:15
Dante Abate
Well, basically, during my monetary fellowship, we were doing extensive searches in the Holocaust site. So these sites that were belonging to the Second World War and also on most recent sites that were connected to mass killings, as you understand, these are quite sensitive sites. And there is a lot of ethics behind this. So sometimes soldiers have not been allowed to excavate because they think they cannot disturb the remains.
00:12:21:17 - 00:12:41:17
Dante Abate
So the only approach that we did, it was possible to use this kind of digital technologies to try to enhance the knowledge. So the two main domains that were applied were belonging to geophysics. So basically supplying techniques with physical properties to find the evidence without disturbing the terrain.
00:12:41:19 - 00:12:54:03
Abigail Acton
So to amplify on that a little bit, please, what does that actually mean in practice? In what situations would you go out? What would you be looking for topographically, and then what would you use to try and understand further what's going on under the ground?
00:12:54:05 - 00:13:11:21
Dante Abate
Well, basically we were looking for more modest graves to large mass graves. They mean techniques that were going to be applied as I say, the physical techniques and according with the features that we're looking for, we were deciding which was the most suitable in the large amount of sites we were planting. And we just put ground penetrating radar.
00:13:11:21 - 00:13:36:24
Dante Abate
So basically Sunday night to send a signal into the ground and record the reflections on the ground. So we saw there was a disturbance in the soil that disappeared in our data. Of course, this is a nondestructive technique, so the ground truth will happen only when the real archeologists are going to do the conditions themselves. So is a support to the authorities, but not just like the final water to the analysis.
00:13:37:05 - 00:13:51:05
Abigail Acton
Yes, I understand. So it shows where it would be beneficial if I can use that word to go further and to dig further. And as you say, sometimes these sites are very, very sensitive and you do not want to be just excavating everywhere. So it's like a targeted detention.
00:13:51:07 - 00:14:16:18
Dante Abate
Basically, our workflow was starting with the eye witness collection, but when you're dealing with historical cases, you are dealing, of course, with individuals that are old and or they are second hand memories. So let's say that they are not always able to pinpoint the exact location where something was happening. So thinking to go on an open field over a square kilometer site with COVID, all of it is not feasible.
00:14:16:19 - 00:14:29:22
Dante Abate
So what we are going to do is try to go there with this kind of technologies, pinpoint to specific areas to optimize the resources in terms of funds, of course, but also human resources, because we are targeting specific locations.
00:14:29:22 - 00:14:40:15
Abigail Acton
Yeah, indeed. Okay. And can you tell me about the use of not not in this context, but in any other context and the use of other technologies in your new field, in this area?
00:14:40:17 - 00:15:17:24
Dante Abate
Yes. Basically, we had developed a methodology to document crime scene in this case using low cost sensors. So they looking for the do not have to do a huge investment by using it. 360 cameras that is able to collect with one single shot that is around it. We were using these techniques to document the crime scenes. So basically, if in a second period we were going there again and we were finding signs, that means that the crime scene was contaminated and something was wrong, basically because it was not clean.
00:15:18:01 - 00:15:25:10
Abigail Acton
Yeah. And if we think about gaming technologies, I noticed that you were mentioning green screens and great gaming technologies. How are these applied?
00:15:25:14 - 00:16:02:16
Dante Abate
As I say, in the traditional way, your documentary crime scene, that was a kind of one with one third with the flow of equipment and new devices like the laser scanners or aerial scanners. Later, technology allowed to create very photorealistic 3D models with a high accuracy of the scene, which of course, can visualize either offline or online. They're using these goggles that provide the users an immersive experience of the scene so they can understand exactly how the environments look like and how they are going to look like, or they can be just granted to simulation.
00:16:02:16 - 00:16:09:10
Dante Abate
So basically is the authority that allows in the court to to understand better seats looks like.
00:16:09:12 - 00:16:11:02
Abigail Acton
Okay, so virtual reality.
00:16:11:04 - 00:16:12:10
Dante Abate
Just basically correct the story.
00:16:12:10 - 00:16:23:14
Abigail Acton
I mean, that's great. You know, that's that's fascinating. Okay. And are you finding that legal professionals are taking up these ideas or are you meeting much resistance? It's quite a disruptive idea.
00:16:23:16 - 00:16:52:18
Dante Abate
Well, I think there are two or three main issues. The first one is that they're not everywhere. This kind of digital evidence not accepted in courts. So there a legislator is to modify something to allow to have this kind of evidence presented to be violent. The second issue, which at the end of the days is always there. It's the lack of funds or this authorities to tap the resources, to acquire this equipment and to do so with themself.
00:16:52:20 - 00:17:12:18
Dante Abate
And the last one that I want to mention that is a bit tricky to understand, but sometimes when we went on site and we went with these machines and we were doing things, they were expecting to find something. But of course this is not sometimes is not possible. If the weakness has been pointing in the wrong direction, we will not find anything.
00:17:12:18 - 00:17:20:24
Dante Abate
So there was kind of a high expectation when we were doing the work and when we were saying, listen, there is nothing here. There was kind of disappointment. So yeah.
00:17:21:00 - 00:17:25:00
Abigail Acton
Yeah. So they were expecting you to produce miracles. You've got all these governments.
00:17:25:00 - 00:17:25:23
Annelies Vredeveldt
And cameras and.
00:17:25:23 - 00:17:30:00
Abigail Acton
All this stuff and now, now go find me something really spectacular. But if it's not there, it's not there.
00:17:30:03 - 00:17:35:15
Dante Abate
That's correct. Is this something that this is is a kind of philosophy to get into it?
00:17:35:17 - 00:17:36:06
Annelies Vredeveldt
Yeah.
00:17:36:06 - 00:17:43:22
Abigail Acton
Expectation management. Yeah. Thank you very much. That was fantastic. Do we have any questions at all? Yeah, Annelies/
00:17:43:24 - 00:17:54:10
Annelies Vredeveldt
It's really interesting work. So you mentioned quickly, it's not always admissible in court. Why might it not be admissible in court? What are the arguments to not admit it?
00:17:54:12 - 00:18:15:08
Dante Abate
Well, these these machine, these devices, these techniques create digital replicas of the models. But of course, some of the machines are certified. So let's say they can give an accuracy that is certified by manufacturer and the techniques, they are not just a plug and play and they're just press the button. So you have to follow a specific procedure.
00:18:15:08 - 00:18:33:07
Dante Abate
And if I do it correctly, I may get the result. If you do it another way, you may get another result. So there is not a standard at the moment for courts to say that this digital evidence can be accepted, because if someone else does it, they can get a different model with this resolution with a different accuracy.
00:18:33:09 - 00:18:39:00
Dante Abate
And this is not I think it's feasible yet to where we're trying to standardize the procedure.
00:18:39:00 - 00:18:51:08
Abigail Acton
It's a fantastic proof of concept. And you can clearly see, you know, how it would be beneficial, especially in complicated scenarios where it's difficult to explain to to a jury, for example, what went on and then easier just to show them.
00:18:51:08 - 00:19:03:19
Dante Abate
Yeah, it makes sense because they're just showing it environment as long as you are not going to the millimeter details of the bullets in the wall, that can be kind of tricky to say, but can be shot by digital evidence.
00:19:03:24 - 00:19:23:17
Abigail Acton
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, that's excellent. Thank you so much, Dante. Super. I'm going to turn to Benjamin. Benjamin? Your project Themis developed an on scene sperm revealing technology that will disrupt the way crime scene investigation is conducted in cases of rape. I just said to Dante when he, you know, he's talking about management of expectations, you know, with all the equipment in the world, if it's not there, it's not there.
00:19:23:19 - 00:19:40:08
Abigail Acton
But I realize actually, when it comes to themis, you can find stuff that other people have been missing. So DNA samples that can be used in evidence are obviously crucial to a successful prosecution. Can you give us a clear idea what that means in terms of the rates, a conviction with current technology?
00:19:40:10 - 00:20:07:10
Benjamin Corgier
Yes. The first important point to mention is that rape is the most underreported crime, 10%. Only part of the reason is that they are not treated correctly with strong evidence. It is very crucial to treat or reported sexual assault with great care in order to lead to prosecution. Unfortunately, this is not the case today, mostly due to poor techniques being used on the rapes in a lot of cases are abundant.
00:20:07:12 - 00:20:24:22
Benjamin Corgier
This jury report in France states that 14% of women of origin to going an imposed sexual act. That's enormous globally. In accidental countries, one rape out of ten is reported and only 45% of reported rapes are cleared.
00:20:24:24 - 00:20:33:19
Abigail Acton
That's very interesting, Benjamin. The statistics are terrible. And what is failing rape victims currently Now when it comes to evidence collection?
00:20:33:21 - 00:21:01:08
Benjamin Corgier
Today, forensics forces of many problems, many issues. Finding semen stains on the rape scenes. A rape scene is always a dirty environment with many kind of body fluids or dirt on the scene. And when you use the classical system, which is the the blue UV light, and that you can see in the CSI TV show, you actually in the real world, you see everything and nothing.
00:21:01:08 - 00:21:14:09
Benjamin Corgier
You don't know where to take yourself, You don't know where is the semen potentially left by the soldier. So it's really messy. You miss a lot of stains and you also wrong stains, I would say.
00:21:14:11 - 00:21:26:07
Abigail Acton
Right. Excellent. I like that line about seeing all and nothing. Yeah, everything is illuminated and you don't know what you're targeting. So what's the difference with the technology that was developed and continued to be amplified by THEMIS the project?
00:21:26:13 - 00:21:55:21
Benjamin Corgier
So yeah, with Themis we developed an innovative solution which is based on biochemistry and our knowledge in molecular biology. So we developed a spray which is called the STK spray for sperm tracker, and it is really made to be simple to use and the CSI just of to mix it powder with water inside a sprayer and spray over the scene where it wants to check if there is semen or not left.
00:21:55:23 - 00:22:00:01
Abigail Acton
And how does that differ in terms of the image that they will get from the UV light?
00:22:00:03 - 00:22:11:24
Benjamin Corgier
After that, they have to illuminate the scene with the classical UV light. But here what they will only see is bright and shiny. Simmons stain if there is.
00:22:12:01 - 00:22:26:07
Abigail Acton
Okay, that's fantastic. So basically it identifies what of all the mass that they can see in front of them actually is the thing they need to target. And does it pick up every single tiny trace or tell me more about the the efficacy of the spray?
00:22:26:12 - 00:22:46:03
Benjamin Corgier
Yes. We made a solution that was is extremely specific to human semen. And you can find some semen that were just as big as one micron. It's a drug or even traces that were wiped, which is often the case when the assaulters don't want to leave any trace. You know.
00:22:46:05 - 00:22:57:02
Abigail Acton
That's fascinating. So even if they try and clean up after themselves, your spray will still pick up that sex. And Benjamin. But are you meeting with any resistance? Are police forces welcoming the new prosthesis, given the benefits that you've mentioned? Presumably.
00:22:57:04 - 00:23:19:20
Benjamin Corgier
Usually we do not see any resistance from the end user. Their end users are really enthusiastic about the product. When the trades on resistance, for instance, when we do a demonstration in the different police offices, we put ten blind, a little stain of semen in the room and we ask them to try to find them with their classical system.
00:23:19:20 - 00:23:41:18
Benjamin Corgier
And usually they found zero and there's no trick because just after that we let them do with a spread and usually they found or the or the stain and they are really impressed. There is a clear effect from the end user. Yeah. Yeah. So they realized that they missed some stains, probably on some scene in the past. And yes, they are really enthusiasts.
00:23:41:20 - 00:23:49:23
Benjamin Corgier
The only resistance we are dealing with is the administrative resistance and the procedure change in the administration system.
00:23:50:00 - 00:23:55:17
Abigail Acton
That must be quite frustrating for the actual law enforcers on the ground. You must be like, Please, can we just get using this now?
00:23:55:19 - 00:24:00:24
Benjamin Corgier
We need to make aware everyone in the system to to use our product.
00:24:01:05 - 00:24:02:08
Abigail Acton
Yeah, but it's there.
00:24:02:09 - 00:24:03:04
Benjamin Corgier
It's there.
00:24:03:06 - 00:24:09:16
Abigail Acton
Know, and is being used in Europe and outside Europe as well. I mean, where are you finding that there is uptake for this globally?
00:24:09:16 - 00:24:36:22
Benjamin Corgier
You Yes, we have sent some samples everywhere in the world and as people are very enthusiastic, some of them already tried it on the scene directly without any authorization or legal authorization. We have an example. One of our solo was in Reno, Nevada, last year, and the Reno Police district came to him and explained they had a scene where they couldn't find any semen and they should.
00:24:36:24 - 00:25:01:03
Benjamin Corgier
They should find some because there were so many complaints about the person that was researched. And so you gave them some samples of this innovation to get print. And that went back on the scene and they found many, many stains that they were not able to see just before. So that was a great story.
00:25:01:05 - 00:25:08:12
Abigail Acton
That's fantastic. Benjamin Very, very good. And looking ahead, what new techniques are coming down the line, do you think, to improve conviction rates?
00:25:08:14 - 00:25:41:02
Benjamin Corgier
Well, I think the next disruptive tool for forensic would be a system or a chemical that would help you date the DNA that you find, because today, DNA techniques, extraction techniques for molecular biology are really sensitive and you can find DNA almost everywhere. It can stay on an interface for many decades if nothing is done. So the relevance of finding a profile and finding DNA on the crime scene is really, really crucial today.
00:25:41:04 - 00:25:50:08
Benjamin Corgier
And if you could say this year, I've been there for one day to day a month or many years, it could make a real difference in the in the prosecution.
00:25:50:08 - 00:25:59:08
Abigail Acton
Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, I hadn't thought of that, but as soon as you say it, it's totally apparent. It's not only what it is and where it is, but when. Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:59:09 - 00:26:01:03
Benjamin Corgier
That's an important parameter. Yeah.
00:26:01:05 - 00:26:11:12
Abigail Acton
And does it degrade? I mean, you know, like we do carbon testing on, on artifacts. I mean, is there, is there a degradation that one can measure? Can you set a time for the age?
00:26:11:14 - 00:26:25:05
Benjamin Corgier
No, it's really today the degradation of the DNA is not only proportional to the time spent, it's also proportional to environment factors. Yeah. So you cannot say clearly who holds the DNA trust you find.
00:26:25:08 - 00:26:33:04
Abigail Acton
That's a fascinating area, though. That's clearly the next step, isn't it? Very good. Thank you so much. Any questions at all for Benjamin? Yeah, Annalies.
00:26:33:06 - 00:26:59:08
Annelies Vredeveldt
Thanks for that. It was really interesting and it's completely outside of my area of expertise. But I do have a technical question, so I think I've heard before that Luminol, which is used to detect blood, actually then prevents you from testing the blood for DNA later. It sort of ruins the blood for later. DNA analysis is that the case with the spray as well, or do you still then do the full DNA analysis, or am I completely wrong about it?
00:27:00:18 - 00:27:01:17
Abigail Acton
it's an interesting question.
00:27:01:23 - 00:27:03:07
Abigail Acton
Benjamin.
00:27:03:09 - 00:27:35:15
Benjamin Corgier
Just know, just for your knowledge, some luminal techniques are different or chemicals are different. And one of the most famous products is made to be able to collect DNA and then go through the profiling and forensics brief for the product we develop. Of course, we designed it to be compatible with all the biochemical identification process after the sampling, it's compatible with extraction, with amplification and with profiling and it's absolutely nontoxic for the users or for the scene.
00:27:35:15 - 00:27:44:13
Benjamin Corgier
I mean, I mean, it doesn't prevent you to detect other fruits with other techniques like blood, like saliva or anything else.
00:27:44:13 - 00:28:04:11
Abigail Acton
So it doesn't interfere with any of the processes at any level. Yes. Fascinating. Well, thank you very much, all of you, for being with me today. And for telling us all about the latest discoveries in your fields. It's very interesting work and in many cases, well, in all of your cases, you're really going to be making people's lives better.
00:28:04:17 - 00:28:09:04
Abigail Acton
It sounds cliched, but it really is the case. So thank you very much. Thank you.
00:28:09:06 - 00:28:09:11
Annelies Vredeveldt
Thank you.
00:28:09:16 - 00:28:11:17
Benjamin Corgier
Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Abigail.
00:28:11:17 - 00:28:36:20
Abigail Acton
Welcome. Goodbye. If you've enjoyed this podcast, have a listen to earlier episodes on subjects as diverse as the latest trends in bio inspired innovation to the struggle against antimicrobial resistance. Follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. You'll find us on Anchor Are you interested in what other EU funded projects are doing in the area of detection, investigation and prosecution?
00:28:36:22 - 00:28:57:16
Abigail Acton
The CORDIS website will give you an insight into the result of projects funded by the Horizon 2020 program that are working in this area. The website has articles and interviews that explore the results of research being conducted in a very broad range of domains and subjects from robots to rabbits. There's something there for you. Maybe you're involved in a project or would like to apply for funding.
00:28:57:17 - 00:29:15:20
Abigail Acton
Take a look at what others are doing in your Domain segment. Check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick. We're always happy to hear from you. Drop us a line editorial at Cordis dot Europa dot EU. Until next time.
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:10:05 - 00:00:16:03
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery.
00:00:16:05 - 00:00:37:03
Abigail Acton
Hello and welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. Today we are taking a look at innovations in evidence collection and what is being done to help detectives, witnesses and legal professionals in criminal cases. Do eyewitnesses from different cultures express their evidence in the same way? What is the influence of cross cultural factors in criminal investigations?
00:00:37:05 - 00:01:00:00
Abigail Acton
What can be done to turn around the extremely low rate of successfully prosecuted rape cases? And what can gaming technology bring to forensic archeology? Listen on to find out. Our three guests today are ideally placed to tell us about the latest advances that are helping to refine criminal investigations. Their projects have all been supported by the EU Horizon 2020 program.
00:01:00:02 - 00:01:13:00
Abigail Acton
Annelies Vredeveldt is associate professor at the Faculty of Law at the VU University, Amsterdam. She investigates psychology in the courtroom from how eyewitnesses remember crimes to detecting lies in suspect statements. Welcome, Annelies.
00:01:13:01 - 00:01:14:07
Annelies Vredeveldt
Thanks. Hi, everyone.
00:01:14:09 - 00:01:28:02
Abigail Acton
Dante Abate is an associate researcher at the Cyprus Institute. His various areas of interest include the application of digital and nondestructive technologies for the identification and documentation of historic crime scenes. Hello, Dante.
00:01:28:03 - 00:01:30:04
Dante Abate
Hi, there. Pleasure to be here.
00:01:30:06 - 00:01:41:08
Abigail Acton
Benjamin Corgier here is currently research and development director at AXO Science, a biotech company specializing in molecular biology and innovative technologies for forensics. Welcome, Benjamin.
00:01:41:10 - 00:01:43:18
Benjamin Corgier
Hi. Hello, everyone. Nice to be there.
00:01:43:20 - 00:02:02:24
Abigail Acton
Nice to have you. Annelies I'm going to turn to you first, if I may. The “Beyond WeirdWitness” project set out to better understand the different ways people process and recount their memories. Annelies, You wanted to design and test evidence based interview guidelines as well. Why is this work needed and why the name “beyond weird witnesses”?
00:02:03:01 - 00:02:27:17
Annelies Vredeveldt
It's a good question. So why it is needed is that nowadays more and more witnesses are testifying in cross-cultural settings. So you can think about international criminal trials, which often include people from various countries around the world, and then judges and lawyers from different countries. You can think about asylum interviews where people want to have to flee their country.
00:02:27:19 - 00:03:11:23
Annelies Vredeveldt
But even in national police interviews, you could have cross-cultural differences from multicultural societies. So it is needed because we know that cultural differences influence memory and communication. Yet we know very little about what's happening there. Why is it called Beyond? WEIRD witnesses. WEIRD in this case stands for Western Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic societies. And research has shown that 96% of participants in psychological studies are from these WEIRD societies, whereas only 12% of the world population qualifies as weird.
00:03:12:00 - 00:03:17:18
Annelies Vredeveldt
So that's why what makes it weird? So about 88% of the world population, we actually know very little.
00:03:17:20 - 00:03:36:18
Abigail Acton
Right. So there's been a real kind of disproportionate focus and a large number. Well, a large, as you just said, a large proportion of people who might be implicated in this kind of scenario. We haven't really understood much about what the differences are and how that manifests itself. Yes. Okay. So what groups are you studying and why did you choose those particular groups?
00:03:36:24 - 00:03:58:05
Annelies Vredeveldt
So in my project, I focused mostly on African population in sub-Saharan sub-Saharan African populations. And the reason is, well, first of all, you have to choose. You have to select a certain part of the world. And, of course, Africa is huge and has so many cultures. But what made me choose it is that on the one hand, it's very underrepresented in psychological studies.
00:03:58:05 - 00:04:16:10
Annelies Vredeveldt
So hardly any psychological research has been done in Africa or with African people, whereas African countries are actually overrepresented or very much well represented in international tribunals or asylum seeker cases. So there's a mismatch there between what's been studied and what's actually relevant to purchase.
00:04:16:12 - 00:04:20:09
Abigail Acton
What's actually needed, and which communities did you look at most closely in Africa?
00:04:20:12 - 00:04:43:22
Annelies Vredeveldt
So there's three subprojects in my bigger project. One is on police interviews in South Africa. So we're looking at serious crime witnesses in South Africa. And I collected interviews there with the South African police collaboration about ten years ago, already on a different project, actually. And then I figured I found I saw that a lot of these interviews were cross-cultural.
00:04:43:24 - 00:05:24:03
Annelies Vredeveldt
80% of them were with witnesses and interviewers from different culture within South Africa. For those of you who don't know, South Africa has 11 official languages and many different subgroups. And I noticed some cross-cultural communication issues and cultural differences there. So I wanted to study those more closely. And then I added two other projects. One is on the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, where you see a lot of witnesses and victims from Rwanda testifying to all kinds of international judges, mostly Western judges, where you also have some anecdotes, some stories about where it might go wrong, but no systematic review, which is what we're doing.
00:05:24:07 - 00:05:37:12
Annelies Vredeveldt
And the third group is looking at asylum seekers from Africa who come into Western countries and have to explain to a Western immigration official why they deserve asylum, what happened to them, why they're persecuted.
00:05:37:14 - 00:05:47:22
Abigail Acton
So that's absolutely fascinating. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've actually found? Do you have any anecdotes for us where you can see that the cross-cultural impact is really coming into the interplay there?
00:05:48:01 - 00:06:11:11
Annelies Vredeveldt
Yeah, absolutely. So I mentioned international tribunals and these anecdotes that are going on there. One anecdote is that there was this witness in a trial who was describing how several people were murdered, and it was very vivid descriptions of what happened. And at one point, the lawyer was something attorney and the witness said, yeah, I'm not sure because I ran away before the murder started.
00:06:11:13 - 00:06:29:23
Annelies Vredeveldt
And then it turned out, which nobody knew. That's actually what all the descriptions were, what he had heard from his brother. But in his culture, describing your brother's memories is the same as describing your own memories. So the source of the information was completely misunderstood by the lawyers and judges.
00:06:30:03 - 00:06:37:05
Abigail Acton
That's a fantastic example. It's a very concrete example. Really very interesting. Any others that you can think of that spring to mind from what you've been coming across?
00:06:37:11 - 00:07:00:19
Annelies Vredeveldt
Yeah. So another one is how trauma is expressed and experienced. So of course, a lot of these witnesses have been traumatized by these horrible experiences. But in some cultures, so in most Western cultures, we would express trauma in psychological symptoms like depression or anxiety. In a lot of other cultures, they would express this trauma traumatic reactions in physical symptoms.
00:07:00:19 - 00:07:12:16
Annelies Vredeveldt
So, for instance, pain in the stomach or being really dizzy. And if people don't recognize that as trauma, then they can also not accommodate for making sure that you don't retraumatize victims.
00:07:12:21 - 00:07:21:05
Abigail Acton
Right. Absolutely. Okay. That's that's great. That's very interesting. And how do you hope that what you're discovering now will be used by people responsible for collecting evidence in the future?
00:07:21:07 - 00:08:00:12
Annelies Vredeveldt
So I hope to create awareness for for starters. So, of course, most people will already suspect that there are cultural differences, but exactly what those differences could look like. So, for instance, not clearly stating the source or incorrectly stating the source of the information, and if investigators know about that, they can really probe for what is actually the source of that information, or as if they're not aware of it, they just they just assume that it is what they say, but also looking for any signs of trauma, for instance, and also learning how to deal with traumatized victims or witnesses and for judges, it's really important that the evaluation of the testimony is also informed
00:08:00:12 - 00:08:16:22
Annelies Vredeveldt
by cultural knowledge. So, for instance, if a witness keeps looking away, keeps avoiding their case, Western judges might interpret that as that they're lying. But in the other culture, that might be seen as a sign of respect. So you need to know that in order to actually appreciate and evaluate it.
00:08:16:24 - 00:08:28:02
Abigail Acton
Absolutely. To determine what's going on. Thank you very much, Annelies. That was very beautifully explained. I appreciate it. It's very interesting work. Does anyone have any questions or observations? Yeah. Benjamin.
00:08:28:02 - 00:08:39:21
Benjamin Corgier
Yes, I have a question for you, Annelies. If you observed within the same culture, is some variation in the way people report what they saw. Is there a high variation inside a single person?
00:08:40:01 - 00:08:57:10
Annelies Vredeveldt
That's a very good question. So it actually starts with What do you mean by culture? This is the big question in my research. In the same culture, what is the same culture? If you say South Africa as a culture, then definitely because there are so many different cultures within South Africa. So then, yes, there are so many differences.
00:08:57:15 - 00:09:21:22
Annelies Vredeveldt
But even within what you might consider the same culture is of course the culture. There are also individual differences, just like there are in our own culture. So I might be more likely to express something with a lot of confidence than someone else who's from my own culture. So individual differences are very relevant as well. But our project really focuses on trying to get more D average cultural differences between cultures.
00:09:21:22 - 00:09:27:19
Abigail Acton
You know, the overarching stuff that really stands out. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. Any other questions? Yes, Dante?
00:09:27:21 - 00:09:45:17
Dante Abate
No, actually, I was wondering, do you have an experience in collecting evidence in the war scenario? I mean, now war is a kind of hot topic in Europe, unfortunately. And I was wondering if a witness can be affected by the traumatic environment that is surrounding them.
00:09:45:19 - 00:10:12:23
Annelies Vredeveldt
That's a very good question. So I've never been to a war zone myself, so I don't have experience with that. My PhD student actually did go to a war zone recently, and he went there to mostly to help the local authorities figure out how they should be interviewing witnesses and victims. And then there's two goals, of course. One is get the best complete, accurate testimony and the other is not retraumatize victims and witnesses by the interview itself.
00:10:13:03 - 00:10:28:06
Annelies Vredeveldt
And yeah, so the environment is definitely very relevant, of course, because if you are in a still in a very traumatized state, very emotional state that is going to interfere with how you remember it and that's going to hamper your reporting of what happened.
00:10:28:08 - 00:10:50:19
Abigail Acton
Thank you very much, analyst. Thank you. I'm going to turn now to Dante. Dante, the Dig for Archeology project aim to change the way in which buried and concealed evidence is analyzed at crime scenes through new technologies such as green screens and latest virtual reality headsets. Technology from gaming, engineering and computing. So I just want to ask you, can you tell us a little bit about how forensic archeology is changing?
00:10:50:20 - 00:10:51:09
Dante Abate
Well.
00:10:51:11 - 00:11:22:17
Dante Abate
Israeli archeologists, additional disciplines. Years ago, archeologists were going on site, doing sketches, recording manually, whatever it was on site, ranging from stratigraphic excavation to artifacts to the construct itself landscape. They are plug and forensic archeology that are changing because technology is changing and is getting a bit too. Let's say, support to the humanities. We can see new technologies to do arts surveys, so we can see new technologies to do nondestructive analysis.
00:11:22:19 - 00:11:43:09
Dante Abate
So the tradeoff is that the new technologies are coming, but also new expect these are needed. And most of the time law enforcement are lacking these expert theses because it's not their job. It's what they're calling the pawn specialists like archeologists, that they are in the field and they do out of politeness.
00:11:43:11 - 00:11:50:14
Abigail Acton
So in what sort of context would you apply the technologies that you use? How does this work in practice?
00:11:50:16 - 00:12:21:15
Dante Abate
Well, basically, during my monetary fellowship, we were doing extensive searches in the Holocaust site. So these sites that were belonging to the Second World War and also on most recent sites that were connected to mass killings, as you understand, these are quite sensitive sites. And there is a lot of ethics behind this. So sometimes soldiers have not been allowed to excavate because they think they cannot disturb the remains.
00:12:21:17 - 00:12:41:17
Dante Abate
So the only approach that we did, it was possible to use this kind of digital technologies to try to enhance the knowledge. So the two main domains that were applied were belonging to geophysics. So basically supplying techniques with physical properties to find the evidence without disturbing the terrain.
00:12:41:19 - 00:12:54:03
Abigail Acton
So to amplify on that a little bit, please, what does that actually mean in practice? In what situations would you go out? What would you be looking for topographically, and then what would you use to try and understand further what's going on under the ground?
00:12:54:05 - 00:13:11:21
Dante Abate
Well, basically we were looking for more modest graves to large mass graves. They mean techniques that were going to be applied as I say, the physical techniques and according with the features that we're looking for, we were deciding which was the most suitable in the large amount of sites we were planting. And we just put ground penetrating radar.
00:13:11:21 - 00:13:36:24
Dante Abate
So basically Sunday night to send a signal into the ground and record the reflections on the ground. So we saw there was a disturbance in the soil that disappeared in our data. Of course, this is a nondestructive technique, so the ground truth will happen only when the real archeologists are going to do the conditions themselves. So is a support to the authorities, but not just like the final water to the analysis.
00:13:37:05 - 00:13:51:05
Abigail Acton
Yes, I understand. So it shows where it would be beneficial if I can use that word to go further and to dig further. And as you say, sometimes these sites are very, very sensitive and you do not want to be just excavating everywhere. So it's like a targeted detention.
00:13:51:07 - 00:14:16:18
Dante Abate
Basically, our workflow was starting with the eye witness collection, but when you're dealing with historical cases, you are dealing, of course, with individuals that are old and or they are second hand memories. So let's say that they are not always able to pinpoint the exact location where something was happening. So thinking to go on an open field over a square kilometer site with COVID, all of it is not feasible.
00:14:16:19 - 00:14:29:22
Dante Abate
So what we are going to do is try to go there with this kind of technologies, pinpoint to specific areas to optimize the resources in terms of funds, of course, but also human resources, because we are targeting specific locations.
00:14:29:22 - 00:14:40:15
Abigail Acton
Yeah, indeed. Okay. And can you tell me about the use of not not in this context, but in any other context and the use of other technologies in your new field, in this area?
00:14:40:17 - 00:15:17:24
Dante Abate
Yes. Basically, we had developed a methodology to document crime scene in this case using low cost sensors. So they looking for the do not have to do a huge investment by using it. 360 cameras that is able to collect with one single shot that is around it. We were using these techniques to document the crime scenes. So basically, if in a second period we were going there again and we were finding signs, that means that the crime scene was contaminated and something was wrong, basically because it was not clean.
00:15:18:01 - 00:15:25:10
Abigail Acton
Yeah. And if we think about gaming technologies, I noticed that you were mentioning green screens and great gaming technologies. How are these applied?
00:15:25:14 - 00:16:02:16
Dante Abate
As I say, in the traditional way, your documentary crime scene, that was a kind of one with one third with the flow of equipment and new devices like the laser scanners or aerial scanners. Later, technology allowed to create very photorealistic 3D models with a high accuracy of the scene, which of course, can visualize either offline or online. They're using these goggles that provide the users an immersive experience of the scene so they can understand exactly how the environments look like and how they are going to look like, or they can be just granted to simulation.
00:16:02:16 - 00:16:09:10
Dante Abate
So basically is the authority that allows in the court to to understand better seats looks like.
00:16:09:12 - 00:16:11:02
Abigail Acton
Okay, so virtual reality.
00:16:11:04 - 00:16:12:10
Dante Abate
Just basically correct the story.
00:16:12:10 - 00:16:23:14
Abigail Acton
I mean, that's great. You know, that's that's fascinating. Okay. And are you finding that legal professionals are taking up these ideas or are you meeting much resistance? It's quite a disruptive idea.
00:16:23:16 - 00:16:52:18
Dante Abate
Well, I think there are two or three main issues. The first one is that they're not everywhere. This kind of digital evidence not accepted in courts. So there a legislator is to modify something to allow to have this kind of evidence presented to be violent. The second issue, which at the end of the days is always there. It's the lack of funds or this authorities to tap the resources, to acquire this equipment and to do so with themself.
00:16:52:20 - 00:17:12:18
Dante Abate
And the last one that I want to mention that is a bit tricky to understand, but sometimes when we went on site and we went with these machines and we were doing things, they were expecting to find something. But of course this is not sometimes is not possible. If the weakness has been pointing in the wrong direction, we will not find anything.
00:17:12:18 - 00:17:20:24
Dante Abate
So there was kind of a high expectation when we were doing the work and when we were saying, listen, there is nothing here. There was kind of disappointment. So yeah.
00:17:21:00 - 00:17:25:00
Abigail Acton
Yeah. So they were expecting you to produce miracles. You've got all these governments.
00:17:25:00 - 00:17:25:23
Annelies Vredeveldt
And cameras and.
00:17:25:23 - 00:17:30:00
Abigail Acton
All this stuff and now, now go find me something really spectacular. But if it's not there, it's not there.
00:17:30:03 - 00:17:35:15
Dante Abate
That's correct. Is this something that this is is a kind of philosophy to get into it?
00:17:35:17 - 00:17:36:06
Annelies Vredeveldt
Yeah.
00:17:36:06 - 00:17:43:22
Abigail Acton
Expectation management. Yeah. Thank you very much. That was fantastic. Do we have any questions at all? Yeah, Annelies/
00:17:43:24 - 00:17:54:10
Annelies Vredeveldt
It's really interesting work. So you mentioned quickly, it's not always admissible in court. Why might it not be admissible in court? What are the arguments to not admit it?
00:17:54:12 - 00:18:15:08
Dante Abate
Well, these these machine, these devices, these techniques create digital replicas of the models. But of course, some of the machines are certified. So let's say they can give an accuracy that is certified by manufacturer and the techniques, they are not just a plug and play and they're just press the button. So you have to follow a specific procedure.
00:18:15:08 - 00:18:33:07
Dante Abate
And if I do it correctly, I may get the result. If you do it another way, you may get another result. So there is not a standard at the moment for courts to say that this digital evidence can be accepted, because if someone else does it, they can get a different model with this resolution with a different accuracy.
00:18:33:09 - 00:18:39:00
Dante Abate
And this is not I think it's feasible yet to where we're trying to standardize the procedure.
00:18:39:00 - 00:18:51:08
Abigail Acton
It's a fantastic proof of concept. And you can clearly see, you know, how it would be beneficial, especially in complicated scenarios where it's difficult to explain to to a jury, for example, what went on and then easier just to show them.
00:18:51:08 - 00:19:03:19
Dante Abate
Yeah, it makes sense because they're just showing it environment as long as you are not going to the millimeter details of the bullets in the wall, that can be kind of tricky to say, but can be shot by digital evidence.
00:19:03:24 - 00:19:23:17
Abigail Acton
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, that's excellent. Thank you so much, Dante. Super. I'm going to turn to Benjamin. Benjamin? Your project Themis developed an on scene sperm revealing technology that will disrupt the way crime scene investigation is conducted in cases of rape. I just said to Dante when he, you know, he's talking about management of expectations, you know, with all the equipment in the world, if it's not there, it's not there.
00:19:23:19 - 00:19:40:08
Abigail Acton
But I realize actually, when it comes to themis, you can find stuff that other people have been missing. So DNA samples that can be used in evidence are obviously crucial to a successful prosecution. Can you give us a clear idea what that means in terms of the rates, a conviction with current technology?
00:19:40:10 - 00:20:07:10
Benjamin Corgier
Yes. The first important point to mention is that rape is the most underreported crime, 10%. Only part of the reason is that they are not treated correctly with strong evidence. It is very crucial to treat or reported sexual assault with great care in order to lead to prosecution. Unfortunately, this is not the case today, mostly due to poor techniques being used on the rapes in a lot of cases are abundant.
00:20:07:12 - 00:20:24:22
Benjamin Corgier
This jury report in France states that 14% of women of origin to going an imposed sexual act. That's enormous globally. In accidental countries, one rape out of ten is reported and only 45% of reported rapes are cleared.
00:20:24:24 - 00:20:33:19
Abigail Acton
That's very interesting, Benjamin. The statistics are terrible. And what is failing rape victims currently Now when it comes to evidence collection?
00:20:33:21 - 00:21:01:08
Benjamin Corgier
Today, forensics forces of many problems, many issues. Finding semen stains on the rape scenes. A rape scene is always a dirty environment with many kind of body fluids or dirt on the scene. And when you use the classical system, which is the the blue UV light, and that you can see in the CSI TV show, you actually in the real world, you see everything and nothing.
00:21:01:08 - 00:21:14:09
Benjamin Corgier
You don't know where to take yourself, You don't know where is the semen potentially left by the soldier. So it's really messy. You miss a lot of stains and you also wrong stains, I would say.
00:21:14:11 - 00:21:26:07
Abigail Acton
Right. Excellent. I like that line about seeing all and nothing. Yeah, everything is illuminated and you don't know what you're targeting. So what's the difference with the technology that was developed and continued to be amplified by THEMIS the project?
00:21:26:13 - 00:21:55:21
Benjamin Corgier
So yeah, with Themis we developed an innovative solution which is based on biochemistry and our knowledge in molecular biology. So we developed a spray which is called the STK spray for sperm tracker, and it is really made to be simple to use and the CSI just of to mix it powder with water inside a sprayer and spray over the scene where it wants to check if there is semen or not left.
00:21:55:23 - 00:22:00:01
Abigail Acton
And how does that differ in terms of the image that they will get from the UV light?
00:22:00:03 - 00:22:11:24
Benjamin Corgier
After that, they have to illuminate the scene with the classical UV light. But here what they will only see is bright and shiny. Simmons stain if there is.
00:22:12:01 - 00:22:26:07
Abigail Acton
Okay, that's fantastic. So basically it identifies what of all the mass that they can see in front of them actually is the thing they need to target. And does it pick up every single tiny trace or tell me more about the the efficacy of the spray?
00:22:26:12 - 00:22:46:03
Benjamin Corgier
Yes. We made a solution that was is extremely specific to human semen. And you can find some semen that were just as big as one micron. It's a drug or even traces that were wiped, which is often the case when the assaulters don't want to leave any trace. You know.
00:22:46:05 - 00:22:57:02
Abigail Acton
That's fascinating. So even if they try and clean up after themselves, your spray will still pick up that sex. And Benjamin. But are you meeting with any resistance? Are police forces welcoming the new prosthesis, given the benefits that you've mentioned? Presumably.
00:22:57:04 - 00:23:19:20
Benjamin Corgier
Usually we do not see any resistance from the end user. Their end users are really enthusiastic about the product. When the trades on resistance, for instance, when we do a demonstration in the different police offices, we put ten blind, a little stain of semen in the room and we ask them to try to find them with their classical system.
00:23:19:20 - 00:23:41:18
Benjamin Corgier
And usually they found zero and there's no trick because just after that we let them do with a spread and usually they found or the or the stain and they are really impressed. There is a clear effect from the end user. Yeah. Yeah. So they realized that they missed some stains, probably on some scene in the past. And yes, they are really enthusiasts.
00:23:41:20 - 00:23:49:23
Benjamin Corgier
The only resistance we are dealing with is the administrative resistance and the procedure change in the administration system.
00:23:50:00 - 00:23:55:17
Abigail Acton
That must be quite frustrating for the actual law enforcers on the ground. You must be like, Please, can we just get using this now?
00:23:55:19 - 00:24:00:24
Benjamin Corgier
We need to make aware everyone in the system to to use our product.
00:24:01:05 - 00:24:02:08
Abigail Acton
Yeah, but it's there.
00:24:02:09 - 00:24:03:04
Benjamin Corgier
It's there.
00:24:03:06 - 00:24:09:16
Abigail Acton
Know, and is being used in Europe and outside Europe as well. I mean, where are you finding that there is uptake for this globally?
00:24:09:16 - 00:24:36:22
Benjamin Corgier
You Yes, we have sent some samples everywhere in the world and as people are very enthusiastic, some of them already tried it on the scene directly without any authorization or legal authorization. We have an example. One of our solo was in Reno, Nevada, last year, and the Reno Police district came to him and explained they had a scene where they couldn't find any semen and they should.
00:24:36:24 - 00:25:01:03
Benjamin Corgier
They should find some because there were so many complaints about the person that was researched. And so you gave them some samples of this innovation to get print. And that went back on the scene and they found many, many stains that they were not able to see just before. So that was a great story.
00:25:01:05 - 00:25:08:12
Abigail Acton
That's fantastic. Benjamin Very, very good. And looking ahead, what new techniques are coming down the line, do you think, to improve conviction rates?
00:25:08:14 - 00:25:41:02
Benjamin Corgier
Well, I think the next disruptive tool for forensic would be a system or a chemical that would help you date the DNA that you find, because today, DNA techniques, extraction techniques for molecular biology are really sensitive and you can find DNA almost everywhere. It can stay on an interface for many decades if nothing is done. So the relevance of finding a profile and finding DNA on the crime scene is really, really crucial today.
00:25:41:04 - 00:25:50:08
Benjamin Corgier
And if you could say this year, I've been there for one day to day a month or many years, it could make a real difference in the in the prosecution.
00:25:50:08 - 00:25:59:08
Abigail Acton
Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, I hadn't thought of that, but as soon as you say it, it's totally apparent. It's not only what it is and where it is, but when. Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:59:09 - 00:26:01:03
Benjamin Corgier
That's an important parameter. Yeah.
00:26:01:05 - 00:26:11:12
Abigail Acton
And does it degrade? I mean, you know, like we do carbon testing on, on artifacts. I mean, is there, is there a degradation that one can measure? Can you set a time for the age?
00:26:11:14 - 00:26:25:05
Benjamin Corgier
No, it's really today the degradation of the DNA is not only proportional to the time spent, it's also proportional to environment factors. Yeah. So you cannot say clearly who holds the DNA trust you find.
00:26:25:08 - 00:26:33:04
Abigail Acton
That's a fascinating area, though. That's clearly the next step, isn't it? Very good. Thank you so much. Any questions at all for Benjamin? Yeah, Annalies.
00:26:33:06 - 00:26:59:08
Annelies Vredeveldt
Thanks for that. It was really interesting and it's completely outside of my area of expertise. But I do have a technical question, so I think I've heard before that Luminol, which is used to detect blood, actually then prevents you from testing the blood for DNA later. It sort of ruins the blood for later. DNA analysis is that the case with the spray as well, or do you still then do the full DNA analysis, or am I completely wrong about it?
00:27:00:18 - 00:27:01:17
Abigail Acton
it's an interesting question.
00:27:01:23 - 00:27:03:07
Abigail Acton
Benjamin.
00:27:03:09 - 00:27:35:15
Benjamin Corgier
Just know, just for your knowledge, some luminal techniques are different or chemicals are different. And one of the most famous products is made to be able to collect DNA and then go through the profiling and forensics brief for the product we develop. Of course, we designed it to be compatible with all the biochemical identification process after the sampling, it's compatible with extraction, with amplification and with profiling and it's absolutely nontoxic for the users or for the scene.
00:27:35:15 - 00:27:44:13
Benjamin Corgier
I mean, I mean, it doesn't prevent you to detect other fruits with other techniques like blood, like saliva or anything else.
00:27:44:13 - 00:28:04:11
Abigail Acton
So it doesn't interfere with any of the processes at any level. Yes. Fascinating. Well, thank you very much, all of you, for being with me today. And for telling us all about the latest discoveries in your fields. It's very interesting work and in many cases, well, in all of your cases, you're really going to be making people's lives better.
00:28:04:17 - 00:28:09:04
Abigail Acton
It sounds cliched, but it really is the case. So thank you very much. Thank you.
00:28:09:06 - 00:28:09:11
Annelies Vredeveldt
Thank you.
00:28:09:16 - 00:28:11:17
Benjamin Corgier
Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Abigail.
00:28:11:17 - 00:28:36:20
Abigail Acton
Welcome. Goodbye. If you've enjoyed this podcast, have a listen to earlier episodes on subjects as diverse as the latest trends in bio inspired innovation to the struggle against antimicrobial resistance. Follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. You'll find us on Anchor Are you interested in what other EU funded projects are doing in the area of detection, investigation and prosecution?
00:28:36:22 - 00:28:57:16
Abigail Acton
The CORDIS website will give you an insight into the result of projects funded by the Horizon 2020 program that are working in this area. The website has articles and interviews that explore the results of research being conducted in a very broad range of domains and subjects from robots to rabbits. There's something there for you. Maybe you're involved in a project or would like to apply for funding.
00:28:57:17 - 00:29:15:20
Abigail Acton
Take a look at what others are doing in your Domain segment. Check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick. We're always happy to hear from you. Drop us a line editorial at Cordis dot Europa dot EU. Until next time.
Insights and ideas
Rape is a global scourge. Millions of unsolved rape cases fail in the absence of evidence found. Current technical barriers to the identification and analysis of sperm traces are one key reason. The Themis project has developed a new technique that can find traces which would be missed by conventional methods and analyses them more quickly and effectively. What happens when you take green screens, gaming technology, lidar and other cutting-edge imaging techniques and apply them to evidence long buried? The Dig-For-Arch project has developed ways these tools can clarify crime scenes that might currently be hard to interpret. Our globalised world means cultures are interrelating more than ever – what happens when eyewitnesses give evidence in cross-cultural contexts? How do we unravel information through a cultural filter? The WEIRD WITNESSES project has some interesting findings to share. This episode of CORDIScovery features three guests who are ideally placed to tell us about the latest advances that are helping to refine criminal investigations. Their projects have all been supported by the EU’s Horizon 2020 programme. Annelies Vredeveldt(opens in new window) is an associate professor at the Faculty of Law at VU Amsterdam(opens in new window). She investigates psychology in the courtroom, from how eyewitnesses remember crimes to detecting lies in suspects’ statements. Dante Abate(opens in new window) is an associate researcher at the Cyprus Institute(opens in new window). His various areas of interest include the application of digital and non-destructive technologies for the identification and documentation of historic crime scenes. Benjamin Corgier(opens in new window) is currently the research and development director at AXO Science(opens in new window), a biotech company specialising in molecular biology and innovative technologies for forensics.
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If you have any feedback, we’re always happy to hear from you! Send us any comments, questions or suggestions to the usual email address, editorial@cordis.europa.eu.