1. It’s not waste until it’s wasted!
Duration 00:25:13
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
YouTube
Transcript
CORDIScovery Vodcast- Episode #1 - It's not waste until it's wasted
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:16:01 - 00:00:39:17
Anthony Lockett
Hello and welcome to this special episode of the CORDIScovery podcast. Today we're looking at the transition to a circular economy and how this could pave the way for a cleaner and more competitive Europe. Unlike the traditional linear model of take, make and dispose. The circular approach focuses on reducing waste, reusing resources, and designing products and systems that can last.
00:00:39:19 - 00:01:06:08
Anthony Lockett
I'm joined today by representatives of three projects that have received funding from the EU's Horizon Europe program. These projects show how research and innovation are helping Europe lead the way in making circularity a reality. So welcome, first of all, to Mattia Comotto. Mattia is a chemist by training. He's a project manager of EFFECTIVE and head of circular economy and sustainability at Aqua Film Group.
00:01:06:10 - 00:01:34:10
Anthony Lockett
Ivar Palk, from Estonia, is responsible for sales at Raiku Packaging which produces natural compostable packaging material to substitute bubble wrap and single use plastics. And finally, Esthèle Goure, who is project acquisition coordinator at Bio Base Europe Pilot Plant in Ghent. She was the coordinator of the Waste2Funk project. And she's a biotechnology engineer by training.
00:01:34:10 - 00:01:59:17
Anthony Lockett
So welcome Mattia, Ivar and Esthèle. Mattia, if I could start with you, your project aims to show how bio-based ingredients can be used in the manufacturing of products across a wide range of sectors, from construction to cars, from packaging to clothing. Where do those bio-based ingredients come from, and why is this important?
00:01:59:19 - 00:02:30:08
Mattia Comotto
Well, first of all, thank you for the invitation and for the question. The source of our bio-based ingredient that we have demonstrated with project EFFECTIVE basically comes from sugar. Once you reach a certain quality that is suitable for the conversion processes, the source of sugar no longer matters. It can be sugar beets, it can be sugar cane starch, even sugars that are produced from agricultural waste, for example.
00:02:30:10 - 00:02:55:21
Mattia Comotto
So, quality is of key importance. When you reach it, it’s only a matter of availability. For industrial production, it's a matter of course of cost. And then of course, it's a matter of sustainability. The environmental impact that is associated to the production of sugar, that needs to be taken into account when you try to develop a new and more sustainable solution.
00:02:56:00 - 00:03:04:24
Anthony Lockett
And what would have happened to the different sources of this sugar if you hadn't been able to find ways of reusing it?
00:03:05:01 - 00:03:28:14
Mattia Comotto
Well, conventional sources of sugar, like sugar beets or sugar cane, are traditionally used by the food industry. We have worked with a very big and important firm producing sugar in Europe. And what they told us is basically that until 2016, there were quotas on sugar production.
00:03:28:14 - 00:03:57:18
Mattia Comotto
After 2016, sugar coats were removed. So of course, production increased, but at the same time, market demand decreased. For example, there are plenty of sugar free solutions in the shops, so they had a kind of surplus of production that they are trying to valorise more than keeping them on the stalk.
00:03:57:20 - 00:04:24:05
Mattia Comotto
So that's a possibility of using that share of sugar that is not a valorised right now. For what concerns? Agricultural wastes, for example, that basically were not used. They can be used, for example, in bio digestion process to produce biogas, biomethane, but not really high value applications.
00:04:24:07 - 00:04:40:19
Anthony Lockett
And once you've sourced the sugar and managed to extract it, how does it then find its way into these various products that you're working on? As I said, from construction to cars, packaging, clothing, carpets, if I understand correctly. How does that work?
00:04:40:21 - 00:05:04:22
Mattia Comotto
Well, there are many conversion processes. First, biotechnological processes with tiny microorganism that eats sugar and produce target molecules that we use to produce. Let's say, different families of plastic. Within the project, we target two main families that are polyamide and
00:05:04:22 - 00:05:08:15
Mattia Comotto
widely used polymers at global level.
00:05:08:17 - 00:05:09:18
Mattia Comotto
If you think about
00:05:09:18 - 00:05:39:06
Mattia Comotto
plastic bottles, polyamide, like woman tights or raincoats, for example. So, there are a different biotechnological and then chemical processes that are run to convert sugar into the final plastic, that is then converted into yarns, filament, films, and potentially any application that we want to target.
00:05:39:08 - 00:05:41:24
Anthony Lockett
And if I'm correct, your project has now finished, right?
00:05:42:00 - 00:05:43:10
Mattia Comotto
Correct.
00:05:43:10 - 00:05:54:14
Anthony Lockett
So might some of our listeners be wearing products or walking across carpets or using items that have been made with these, these different kinds of plastics?
00:05:54:14 - 00:06:06:04
Mattia Comotto
We are not there yet.
Because we successfully demonstrated the production of prototypes like you mentioned, carpets, swimsuits, bike pants, but we are not on a commercial scale yet.
00:06:06:06 - 00:06:37:07
Mattia Comotto
We are finalising the fine tuning of the technology, the ambition of achieving the targets, and the KPI that we said. And once we we managed to do that, uh, the very last mile will be to set up an industrial scale facility, able to produce large volumes of this biomaterial that then can be used in the products that you mentioned, and the consumers can experience and feel that.
00:06:37:07 - 00:06:56:07
Anthony Lockett
Okay, maybe let's come back to that in the general discussion, because we're talking a lot about startups and scale ups in Europe at the moment. So, it would be interesting to hear about your experience and the other guests. What could help you take it to the next stage? But now, let's turn to Ivar, representing the Raiku project here.
00:06:56:07 - 00:07:14:08
Anthony Lockett
Your project aims to optimize the use of wood as a natural biodegradable material for packaging. Can you, I mean, it sounds quite obvious. But can you explain this to us why it's preferable to use wood, rather than plastic for packaging?
00:07:14:08 - 00:07:44:04
Ivar Palk
You know, with plastic, it’s of course the carbon footprint that will be a big difference in the production processes. But also, you know, is there more e-commerce and more shipping products? On the other side 30% of Europeans don’t recycle. So, we need material and natural material that can recycle itself. That’s the major thing.
00:07:44:06 - 00:07:53:24
Anthony Lockett
Right, right. And would I be correct in thinking that it's less resource-intensive to produce packaging, in terms of water and energy and so on, using wood rather than plastics?
00:07:54:00 - 00:07:55:10
Ivar Palk
Yes, of course.
00:07:55:12 - 00:08:39:18
Ivar Palk
There’s 2 to 3 times the difference. And, for example, some people think that, okay, paper is more environmentally friendly. But for example, compared to paper, the whole process takes like 10 to 20 hours, and for us to make the springs, the packaging material, it takes 30 seconds. So, it takes a lot less energy, like more than 10,000 times less water and also 50 times less energy.
00:08:39:20 - 00:08:48:02
Anthony Lockett
I see, I see. And how do you make sure that you source the wood in a sustainable way, avoiding deforestation and so on?
00:08:48:03 – 00:09:39:12
Ivar Palk
Yes. So, first of all, our supplier gets the wood from sustainably managed forests, and also, we get kind of the offcuts of the supplier products, which they can’t sell anymore because they don’t fit their demand. So, we get it from that side. And also, the wood that we use is alder wood, which is not popularly used in Europe. And mostly burned to get energy. The way we make the product is so effective that 1m³ of wood, they get 20m³ of packaging material. So, it’s like making popcorn.
00:09:39:14 - 00:09:48:07
Anthony Lockett
And maybe I'll ask you a similar question to the one I asked Mattia, I mean, is the solution you're working on commercially available currently?
00:09:48:07 - 00:09:55:24
Ivar Palk
Yeah. We’re on the market and we have over 100 customers from 15 different countries.
00:09:56:01 - 00:09:59:03
Anthony Lockett
Okay, so you've got a busy job doing sales for Raiku then.
00:09:59:09 - 00:10:01:03
Ivar Palk
For sure.
00:10:01:05 - 00:10:33:10
Anthony Lockett
Okay, very good. Let me turn to Esthèle, the Waste2Func project. You work for the Bio Base Europe pilot plant, here in Belgium, in Ghent, which is a service provider for bio-based products and processes. And you're in the business of converting agricultural and industrial food waste into raw materials that can be used to make consumer products. The Waste2Func project demonstrated the production of bio surfactants and lactic acid from food waste. From agriculture, the food industry, supermarkets, and restaurants.
00:10:33:12 - 00:10:42:06
Anthony Lockett
Perhaps, could you tell us what are bio surfactants and lactic acid and why are they useful for producing these kinds of products?
00:10:42:08 - 00:10:46:18
Esthèle Goure
That’s a long question that I could answer for a lot of hours.
00:10:46:19 - 00:10:48:23
Anthony Lockett
The short answer, yeah.
00:10:49:00 - 00:11:22:11
Esthèle Goure
Indeed, so maybe to tackle this question, two things. The project is building around food waste and lactic acid and biosurfactants, indeed. Why? It's because lactic acid and bio surfactants are everywhere in your world. I hope that you brushed your teeth this morning because the toothpaste is containing surfactants and can help you, the foamy stuff in your mouth, for instance. So, surfactants are everywhere in the world.
00:11:22:13 - 00:11:48:07
Esthèle Goure
And basically, today, you could find it in customer products, like laundry, like cleaning products. But also paint, ink. When you’re writing, this nice wave when you’re having the pen on paper, that’s surfactants. Unfortunately, there is a lot of fossils-based surfactants that are starting to be banned.
00:11:48:09 - 00:12:21:11
Esthèle Goure
But to be honest, that’s the majority of the market for now, and bio surfactants are already starting to be commercialised via biotechnological routes, like you mentioned, but those ones are built upon a value chain of first-generation sugar, meaning that the sustainability behind that is quite challenging. So, the Waste2Func was built about food waste to make this sustainability a bit better and also to provide those new molecules to the market that address a lot of needs.
00:12:21:13 - 00:12:49:18
Esthèle Goure
And for lactic acid, it's a more common chemical. You have it in different application, but you can go to PLA, so a polymer, for instance. But nothing yet on the market from food waste. So that's why the innovation of this project was really building around food waste to make it more sustainable. And the two molecules that are addressing needs on the consumer market.
00:12:49:20 – 00:13:11:07
Anthony Lockett
Right, right. From the consumer perspective, as you say, you know, we all brush our teeth in the morning, I imagine some people might be a bit nervous about the idea of brushing their teeth with something that has been made partly using food or industrial waste. How do you go about reassuring consumers that all of this is safe and healthy?
00:13:11:12 – 00:13:27:09
Esthèle Goure
That’s a good, good question. In the project, so on a European project, there are a lot of partners, right? We are the only ones, let’s say, scale of facility. So, we really focus on the technical part, but overall, in the project, there were also end users, so ECOVER, and ECOVER did a lot of consumer studies.
00:13:27:09 – 00:13:58:05
Esthèle Goure
Also, we tried out different marketing interactions to make sure that the messaging was clear and made sense. And there were a lot of drawbacks to circularity, because people did not really understanding it. And that's why the prototype that we produced was focusing on “waste is not waste if it’s not wasted”.
00:13:58:07 – 00:14:36:09
Esthèle Goure
And that messaging was a bit strong in comparison with all the other type of messaging. And I think that's some nice information that the technology owner, AmphiStar for bio surfactants and TRIPLEW for lactic acid, learned and now they're working on how commercialise the product to make sense to the consumer. But it really depends on the market, because, for instance, surfactant you could find it in agrochemicals when you spray things on crops up to your toothpaste, but up to the paint, so the market is different so the messaging should be different as well.
00:14:36:11 – 00:14:57:04
Anthony Lockett
I see that your Waste2Func project is also finished now like Mattia’s project. If I understand correctly, I mean, you were at the stage of developing prototypes, but not yet making these products commercially available, but I think there were two spinoff projects, which presumably are taking you a little bit further on the journey. Can you say a little bit about that?
00:14:57:06 – 00:15:13:02
Esthèle Goure
Yeah, indeed. So, Bio Base Europe Pilot Plant was the coordinator of Waste2Func. And in this project, as I mentioned, TRIPLEW and AmphiStar were two start-ups that were building their technology from TRL five to TRL seven.
00:15:13:06 – 00:15:19:13
Anthony Lockett
Maybe for our listeners, we should just explain that TRL is a technology readiness level.
00:15:19:13 – 00:16:14:22
Esthèle Goure
So it's basically, that they had already their concept proven at the end of production scale, let's say. But the TRL seven is really to have hundreds of kilos to address formulation and make sure that the end user, like ECOVER, but also Procter and Gamble, Unilever, any kind of end user, could use their product. So, it's not there at the large-scale production, but it's there that the technology is at risk of making investment to build their own factory. That would be the next step. And basically, I'm answering the question by saying that the Waste2Func Project ended last year, in November, and throughout this year, we start to get a lot of funding, even on the EIC Accelerator. TRIPLEW also got a new EIC Accelerator a year before, and with that they had a lot of investment and different grants.
00:16:14:24 – 00:16:51:23
Esthèle Goure
So, they are in the shape of building their capacity to produce for the market. And, indeed, in parallel, two European projects got funded, where I’m still the coordinator for the bio surfactant line that is called Surf’s Up where we developed a lot of different bio surfactant for the market, where Ajinomoto, Unilever and Eco will also try it out. And for TripleW, they are building their flagship. So, it's SBO funding and it's building their own plants in Amsterdam. So that's quite cool.
00:16:52:02 – 00:17:12:11
Anthony Lockett
Okay. Very interesting. Can I just return to you, Mattia, because we finished by, sort of asking this question about what it would take to, to bring your project to the next stage. Having listened to Esthèle's experience, you mentioned the EIC accelerator grant, for example, in the spin-off projects. What are your plans?
00:17:12:13 – 00:18:02:07
Mattia Comotto
That's a great question. Certainly, the plan is to finalise the development program. As I said, we had set a few years ago some targets, some KPIs for production, yields, quality, etc. that we need to achieve before starting to take the last mile. Once we’ve reached those targets, the work that we have had is to set up a commercial facility. This sounds like a very simple task, but actually it is not because these tasks require significant investment and, let's say, the market scenario right now maybe is not the best.
00:18:02:07 – 00:18:03:12
Anthony Lockett
Why is that?
00:18:03:14 – 00:18:51:11
Mattia Comotto
Well, the price of energy, especially in Europe, is quite high, and energy is, a significant cost in any industrial facilities. Certainly, one step that we need to explore a little bit more in detail is the availability of feedstock. So where can we source sugars at a reasonable price with a good environmental footprint? So, there are different uh, area that we need to deep dive a little bit more in order to have a clearer picture on where this industrial facility might be built, and can produce a large volume of the product that we are currently developing.
00:18:51:14 – 00:18:53:15
Anthony Lockett
Okay. And do you think you can do that in Europe?
00:18:53:17 – 00:19:50:07
Mattia Comotto
That's certainly an option. We have run our development program in Europe, so it might be a logical next step to follow up this project with the industrial facility in Europe. Again, it's an option. We are exploring it. Certainly, it would be a fantastic solution, especially for Aquafil, the company I work for, because we have a unique recycling facility in Slovenia, in the city of Ljubljana, where we chemically recycle nylon six waste both pre- and post-consumer. So it would be a, let me say, a nice story of sustainability, having a plant in Europe that is able to recycle waste and at the same time having a different plant that is able to produce the same polymer, the same type of plastic from plant based raw material.
00:19:50:09 – 00:20:20:08
Anthony Lockett
Okay. I'd like to explore another issue with the three of you, which is the potential of circular solutions. To bring positive benefits for the environment, but also to have a positive economic effect. And Esthèle, if I'm not mistaken, your, bio-based Europe pilot plant employs, around 160 people. So clearly there's been, job creation and, economic activity there. So, what is the potential in your view?
00:20:20:08 – 00:20:40:17
Esthèle Goure
It's a good question again, but for the bio base pilot plant, we are a pilot and demo infrastructure in Europe. So, we do help Start-Ups, SMEs and corporations to scale up their processes, biotech processes, up to the commercial level that they want to make sure that they either go to a CMO or build their own plant.
00:20:40:22 – 00:21:04:01
Esthèle Goure
So, the 160 employees is quite consequent, but it's not enough to make sure that all the technologies are going to the market, but the creation of employment and so on. We see it from Start-Ups, for instance, and the SMEs that are growing like AmphiStar. When we ended the project, they were five, and now 25.
00:21:04:03 – 00:21:24:23
Esthèle Goure
So those numbers are quite consistent. And same for tripleW. Building their own plants means that they need to employ operators, technicians and so on and so forth. So that's really concrete. And that's thanks to the investment in European projects, but also the technology readiness that is moving on. So that's quite nice.
00:21:25:00 – 00:21:37:20
Anthony Lockett
Okay. And, Ivar, you mentioned the Raiku products are commercially available, can you give us an idea of what kind of workforce you have, what kind of, economic dividends your business brings in?
00:21:38:00 – 00:21:56:07
Ivar Palk
Yeah. Compared to the others, we are like a pretty small group. We have like 20 people. From there, like ten of us are engineers. So yeah, we’re still young in that sense.
00:21:56:09 – 00:21:58:09
Anthony Lockett
And how young is the company?
00:21:58:09 – 00:22:01:00
Ivar Palk
The idea started like four years ago.
00:22:01:01 – 00:22:03:07
Anthony Lockett
Okay. So quite recent.
00:22:03:07 – 00:22:15:23
Ivar Palk
So, first year, as we started from scratch, there wasn't any such technology before, it took a lot of time to figure it out, like how to make it.
00:22:16:00 – 00:22:20:00
Anthony Lockett
And are there plans to bring the business to a next level?
00:22:20:02 – 00:22:41:19
Ivar Palk
Yeah. They're scaling up right now. So we have peak demand. But we also need to fulfill that demand as well. So, we’re increasing production. And also, in the next couple of years, we're planning to expand to, for example, the France as well, where it's like a big luxury market.
00:22:41:21 – 00:22:49:23
Anthony Lockett
And what would be the biggest challenge there is? Is it finding infrastructure or capital or the right talent to help grow your business?
00:22:50:00 – 00:23:05:01
Ivar Palk
Yes. Just increasing that production, getting the new machinery. Because otherwise the machineries, they’re pretty modular. We can scale up and that it's you know, unique in that way. But, yeah, just growing up.
00:23:05:03 – 00:23:26:12
Anthony Lockett
Okay, okay. One last question for the three of you. If you could just summarise in one sentence, how you would encourage people, what kind of positive message you would send out to people out there? To encourage them to consider circular solutions? What would it be in a nutshell? Mattia, would you care to go first?
00:23:26:14 – 00:24:04:08
Mattia Comotto
Yeah. I start from what Esthèle just said. Waste is not waste until it is wasted. So, certainly, one topic, each of us could work on the regulation side. Because we should avoid that product ends up as a waste. It can be used as a new resource, or secondary raw material for the production of circular products. That's certainly one key topic.
00:24:04:10 – 00:24:07:16
Anthony Lockett
Thank you very much. Esthèle, do you have something to add?
00:24:07:18 – 00:24:31:17
Esthèle Goure
Yeah. I will stay positive. I can assure you that there is growth beyond circularity and that there is employment. And there is excitement behind the technology because, indeed, we are not making, like AI or robots, but the technology is quite innovative, quite strong, and I think it's worth digging a bit more and investing a bit more, indeed.
00:24:31:19 – 00:24:33:13
Anthony Lockett
Thanks a lot, Esthèle. And Ivar?
00:24:33:17 – 00:24:50:06
Ivar Palk
I think we shouldn't be afraid of trying out new products and things. If you are a consumer, decision maker in companies, don’t be afraid to try it out and give it a chance. Who knows, maybe you will start liking it.
00:24:50:08 – 00:25:24:07
Anthony Lockett
Thanks very much for those positive concluding words. Thanks very much to our guests for joining us, and to you for listening to this episode. Follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and check out the podcast homepage on the Cordis website. You can subscribe to make sure the hottest research and EU funded science isn't passing you by, and you can find more information and project examples on the Cordis website, on the European Commission's Research and Innovation website and in our online magazine, Horizon. We'll include the links in the show notes for this episode.
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:16:01 - 00:00:39:17
Anthony Lockett
Hello and welcome to this special episode of the CORDIScovery podcast. Today we're looking at the transition to a circular economy and how this could pave the way for a cleaner and more competitive Europe. Unlike the traditional linear model of take, make and dispose. The circular approach focuses on reducing waste, reusing resources, and designing products and systems that can last.
00:00:39:19 - 00:01:06:08
Anthony Lockett
I'm joined today by representatives of three projects that have received funding from the EU's Horizon Europe program. These projects show how research and innovation are helping Europe lead the way in making circularity a reality. So welcome, first of all, to Mattia Comotto. Mattia is a chemist by training. He's a project manager of EFFECTIVE and head of circular economy and sustainability at Aqua Film Group.
00:01:06:10 - 00:01:34:10
Anthony Lockett
Ivar Palk, from Estonia, is responsible for sales at Raiku Packaging which produces natural compostable packaging material to substitute bubble wrap and single use plastics. And finally, Esthèle Goure, who is project acquisition coordinator at Bio Base Europe Pilot Plant in Ghent. She was the coordinator of the Waste2Funk project. And she's a biotechnology engineer by training.
00:01:34:10 - 00:01:59:17
Anthony Lockett
So welcome Mattia, Ivar and Esthèle. Mattia, if I could start with you, your project aims to show how bio-based ingredients can be used in the manufacturing of products across a wide range of sectors, from construction to cars, from packaging to clothing. Where do those bio-based ingredients come from, and why is this important?
00:01:59:19 - 00:02:30:08
Mattia Comotto
Well, first of all, thank you for the invitation and for the question. The source of our bio-based ingredient that we have demonstrated with project EFFECTIVE basically comes from sugar. Once you reach a certain quality that is suitable for the conversion processes, the source of sugar no longer matters. It can be sugar beets, it can be sugar cane starch, even sugars that are produced from agricultural waste, for example.
00:02:30:10 - 00:02:55:21
Mattia Comotto
So, quality is of key importance. When you reach it, it’s only a matter of availability. For industrial production, it's a matter of course of cost. And then of course, it's a matter of sustainability. The environmental impact that is associated to the production of sugar, that needs to be taken into account when you try to develop a new and more sustainable solution.
00:02:56:00 - 00:03:04:24
Anthony Lockett
And what would have happened to the different sources of this sugar if you hadn't been able to find ways of reusing it?
00:03:05:01 - 00:03:28:14
Mattia Comotto
Well, conventional sources of sugar, like sugar beets or sugar cane, are traditionally used by the food industry. We have worked with a very big and important firm producing sugar in Europe. And what they told us is basically that until 2016, there were quotas on sugar production.
00:03:28:14 - 00:03:57:18
Mattia Comotto
After 2016, sugar coats were removed. So of course, production increased, but at the same time, market demand decreased. For example, there are plenty of sugar free solutions in the shops, so they had a kind of surplus of production that they are trying to valorise more than keeping them on the stalk.
00:03:57:20 - 00:04:24:05
Mattia Comotto
So that's a possibility of using that share of sugar that is not a valorised right now. For what concerns? Agricultural wastes, for example, that basically were not used. They can be used, for example, in bio digestion process to produce biogas, biomethane, but not really high value applications.
00:04:24:07 - 00:04:40:19
Anthony Lockett
And once you've sourced the sugar and managed to extract it, how does it then find its way into these various products that you're working on? As I said, from construction to cars, packaging, clothing, carpets, if I understand correctly. How does that work?
00:04:40:21 - 00:05:04:22
Mattia Comotto
Well, there are many conversion processes. First, biotechnological processes with tiny microorganism that eats sugar and produce target molecules that we use to produce. Let's say, different families of plastic. Within the project, we target two main families that are polyamide and
00:05:04:22 - 00:05:08:15
Mattia Comotto
widely used polymers at global level.
00:05:08:17 - 00:05:09:18
Mattia Comotto
If you think about
00:05:09:18 - 00:05:39:06
Mattia Comotto
plastic bottles, polyamide, like woman tights or raincoats, for example. So, there are a different biotechnological and then chemical processes that are run to convert sugar into the final plastic, that is then converted into yarns, filament, films, and potentially any application that we want to target.
00:05:39:08 - 00:05:41:24
Anthony Lockett
And if I'm correct, your project has now finished, right?
00:05:42:00 - 00:05:43:10
Mattia Comotto
Correct.
00:05:43:10 - 00:05:54:14
Anthony Lockett
So might some of our listeners be wearing products or walking across carpets or using items that have been made with these, these different kinds of plastics?
00:05:54:14 - 00:06:06:04
Mattia Comotto
We are not there yet.
Because we successfully demonstrated the production of prototypes like you mentioned, carpets, swimsuits, bike pants, but we are not on a commercial scale yet.
00:06:06:06 - 00:06:37:07
Mattia Comotto
We are finalising the fine tuning of the technology, the ambition of achieving the targets, and the KPI that we said. And once we we managed to do that, uh, the very last mile will be to set up an industrial scale facility, able to produce large volumes of this biomaterial that then can be used in the products that you mentioned, and the consumers can experience and feel that.
00:06:37:07 - 00:06:56:07
Anthony Lockett
Okay, maybe let's come back to that in the general discussion, because we're talking a lot about startups and scale ups in Europe at the moment. So, it would be interesting to hear about your experience and the other guests. What could help you take it to the next stage? But now, let's turn to Ivar, representing the Raiku project here.
00:06:56:07 - 00:07:14:08
Anthony Lockett
Your project aims to optimize the use of wood as a natural biodegradable material for packaging. Can you, I mean, it sounds quite obvious. But can you explain this to us why it's preferable to use wood, rather than plastic for packaging?
00:07:14:08 - 00:07:44:04
Ivar Palk
You know, with plastic, it’s of course the carbon footprint that will be a big difference in the production processes. But also, you know, is there more e-commerce and more shipping products? On the other side 30% of Europeans don’t recycle. So, we need material and natural material that can recycle itself. That’s the major thing.
00:07:44:06 - 00:07:53:24
Anthony Lockett
Right, right. And would I be correct in thinking that it's less resource-intensive to produce packaging, in terms of water and energy and so on, using wood rather than plastics?
00:07:54:00 - 00:07:55:10
Ivar Palk
Yes, of course.
00:07:55:12 - 00:08:39:18
Ivar Palk
There’s 2 to 3 times the difference. And, for example, some people think that, okay, paper is more environmentally friendly. But for example, compared to paper, the whole process takes like 10 to 20 hours, and for us to make the springs, the packaging material, it takes 30 seconds. So, it takes a lot less energy, like more than 10,000 times less water and also 50 times less energy.
00:08:39:20 - 00:08:48:02
Anthony Lockett
I see, I see. And how do you make sure that you source the wood in a sustainable way, avoiding deforestation and so on?
00:08:48:03 – 00:09:39:12
Ivar Palk
Yes. So, first of all, our supplier gets the wood from sustainably managed forests, and also, we get kind of the offcuts of the supplier products, which they can’t sell anymore because they don’t fit their demand. So, we get it from that side. And also, the wood that we use is alder wood, which is not popularly used in Europe. And mostly burned to get energy. The way we make the product is so effective that 1m³ of wood, they get 20m³ of packaging material. So, it’s like making popcorn.
00:09:39:14 - 00:09:48:07
Anthony Lockett
And maybe I'll ask you a similar question to the one I asked Mattia, I mean, is the solution you're working on commercially available currently?
00:09:48:07 - 00:09:55:24
Ivar Palk
Yeah. We’re on the market and we have over 100 customers from 15 different countries.
00:09:56:01 - 00:09:59:03
Anthony Lockett
Okay, so you've got a busy job doing sales for Raiku then.
00:09:59:09 - 00:10:01:03
Ivar Palk
For sure.
00:10:01:05 - 00:10:33:10
Anthony Lockett
Okay, very good. Let me turn to Esthèle, the Waste2Func project. You work for the Bio Base Europe pilot plant, here in Belgium, in Ghent, which is a service provider for bio-based products and processes. And you're in the business of converting agricultural and industrial food waste into raw materials that can be used to make consumer products. The Waste2Func project demonstrated the production of bio surfactants and lactic acid from food waste. From agriculture, the food industry, supermarkets, and restaurants.
00:10:33:12 - 00:10:42:06
Anthony Lockett
Perhaps, could you tell us what are bio surfactants and lactic acid and why are they useful for producing these kinds of products?
00:10:42:08 - 00:10:46:18
Esthèle Goure
That’s a long question that I could answer for a lot of hours.
00:10:46:19 - 00:10:48:23
Anthony Lockett
The short answer, yeah.
00:10:49:00 - 00:11:22:11
Esthèle Goure
Indeed, so maybe to tackle this question, two things. The project is building around food waste and lactic acid and biosurfactants, indeed. Why? It's because lactic acid and bio surfactants are everywhere in your world. I hope that you brushed your teeth this morning because the toothpaste is containing surfactants and can help you, the foamy stuff in your mouth, for instance. So, surfactants are everywhere in the world.
00:11:22:13 - 00:11:48:07
Esthèle Goure
And basically, today, you could find it in customer products, like laundry, like cleaning products. But also paint, ink. When you’re writing, this nice wave when you’re having the pen on paper, that’s surfactants. Unfortunately, there is a lot of fossils-based surfactants that are starting to be banned.
00:11:48:09 - 00:12:21:11
Esthèle Goure
But to be honest, that’s the majority of the market for now, and bio surfactants are already starting to be commercialised via biotechnological routes, like you mentioned, but those ones are built upon a value chain of first-generation sugar, meaning that the sustainability behind that is quite challenging. So, the Waste2Func was built about food waste to make this sustainability a bit better and also to provide those new molecules to the market that address a lot of needs.
00:12:21:13 - 00:12:49:18
Esthèle Goure
And for lactic acid, it's a more common chemical. You have it in different application, but you can go to PLA, so a polymer, for instance. But nothing yet on the market from food waste. So that's why the innovation of this project was really building around food waste to make it more sustainable. And the two molecules that are addressing needs on the consumer market.
00:12:49:20 – 00:13:11:07
Anthony Lockett
Right, right. From the consumer perspective, as you say, you know, we all brush our teeth in the morning, I imagine some people might be a bit nervous about the idea of brushing their teeth with something that has been made partly using food or industrial waste. How do you go about reassuring consumers that all of this is safe and healthy?
00:13:11:12 – 00:13:27:09
Esthèle Goure
That’s a good, good question. In the project, so on a European project, there are a lot of partners, right? We are the only ones, let’s say, scale of facility. So, we really focus on the technical part, but overall, in the project, there were also end users, so ECOVER, and ECOVER did a lot of consumer studies.
00:13:27:09 – 00:13:58:05
Esthèle Goure
Also, we tried out different marketing interactions to make sure that the messaging was clear and made sense. And there were a lot of drawbacks to circularity, because people did not really understanding it. And that's why the prototype that we produced was focusing on “waste is not waste if it’s not wasted”.
00:13:58:07 – 00:14:36:09
Esthèle Goure
And that messaging was a bit strong in comparison with all the other type of messaging. And I think that's some nice information that the technology owner, AmphiStar for bio surfactants and TRIPLEW for lactic acid, learned and now they're working on how commercialise the product to make sense to the consumer. But it really depends on the market, because, for instance, surfactant you could find it in agrochemicals when you spray things on crops up to your toothpaste, but up to the paint, so the market is different so the messaging should be different as well.
00:14:36:11 – 00:14:57:04
Anthony Lockett
I see that your Waste2Func project is also finished now like Mattia’s project. If I understand correctly, I mean, you were at the stage of developing prototypes, but not yet making these products commercially available, but I think there were two spinoff projects, which presumably are taking you a little bit further on the journey. Can you say a little bit about that?
00:14:57:06 – 00:15:13:02
Esthèle Goure
Yeah, indeed. So, Bio Base Europe Pilot Plant was the coordinator of Waste2Func. And in this project, as I mentioned, TRIPLEW and AmphiStar were two start-ups that were building their technology from TRL five to TRL seven.
00:15:13:06 – 00:15:19:13
Anthony Lockett
Maybe for our listeners, we should just explain that TRL is a technology readiness level.
00:15:19:13 – 00:16:14:22
Esthèle Goure
So it's basically, that they had already their concept proven at the end of production scale, let's say. But the TRL seven is really to have hundreds of kilos to address formulation and make sure that the end user, like ECOVER, but also Procter and Gamble, Unilever, any kind of end user, could use their product. So, it's not there at the large-scale production, but it's there that the technology is at risk of making investment to build their own factory. That would be the next step. And basically, I'm answering the question by saying that the Waste2Func Project ended last year, in November, and throughout this year, we start to get a lot of funding, even on the EIC Accelerator. TRIPLEW also got a new EIC Accelerator a year before, and with that they had a lot of investment and different grants.
00:16:14:24 – 00:16:51:23
Esthèle Goure
So, they are in the shape of building their capacity to produce for the market. And, indeed, in parallel, two European projects got funded, where I’m still the coordinator for the bio surfactant line that is called Surf’s Up where we developed a lot of different bio surfactant for the market, where Ajinomoto, Unilever and Eco will also try it out. And for TripleW, they are building their flagship. So, it's SBO funding and it's building their own plants in Amsterdam. So that's quite cool.
00:16:52:02 – 00:17:12:11
Anthony Lockett
Okay. Very interesting. Can I just return to you, Mattia, because we finished by, sort of asking this question about what it would take to, to bring your project to the next stage. Having listened to Esthèle's experience, you mentioned the EIC accelerator grant, for example, in the spin-off projects. What are your plans?
00:17:12:13 – 00:18:02:07
Mattia Comotto
That's a great question. Certainly, the plan is to finalise the development program. As I said, we had set a few years ago some targets, some KPIs for production, yields, quality, etc. that we need to achieve before starting to take the last mile. Once we’ve reached those targets, the work that we have had is to set up a commercial facility. This sounds like a very simple task, but actually it is not because these tasks require significant investment and, let's say, the market scenario right now maybe is not the best.
00:18:02:07 – 00:18:03:12
Anthony Lockett
Why is that?
00:18:03:14 – 00:18:51:11
Mattia Comotto
Well, the price of energy, especially in Europe, is quite high, and energy is, a significant cost in any industrial facilities. Certainly, one step that we need to explore a little bit more in detail is the availability of feedstock. So where can we source sugars at a reasonable price with a good environmental footprint? So, there are different uh, area that we need to deep dive a little bit more in order to have a clearer picture on where this industrial facility might be built, and can produce a large volume of the product that we are currently developing.
00:18:51:14 – 00:18:53:15
Anthony Lockett
Okay. And do you think you can do that in Europe?
00:18:53:17 – 00:19:50:07
Mattia Comotto
That's certainly an option. We have run our development program in Europe, so it might be a logical next step to follow up this project with the industrial facility in Europe. Again, it's an option. We are exploring it. Certainly, it would be a fantastic solution, especially for Aquafil, the company I work for, because we have a unique recycling facility in Slovenia, in the city of Ljubljana, where we chemically recycle nylon six waste both pre- and post-consumer. So it would be a, let me say, a nice story of sustainability, having a plant in Europe that is able to recycle waste and at the same time having a different plant that is able to produce the same polymer, the same type of plastic from plant based raw material.
00:19:50:09 – 00:20:20:08
Anthony Lockett
Okay. I'd like to explore another issue with the three of you, which is the potential of circular solutions. To bring positive benefits for the environment, but also to have a positive economic effect. And Esthèle, if I'm not mistaken, your, bio-based Europe pilot plant employs, around 160 people. So clearly there's been, job creation and, economic activity there. So, what is the potential in your view?
00:20:20:08 – 00:20:40:17
Esthèle Goure
It's a good question again, but for the bio base pilot plant, we are a pilot and demo infrastructure in Europe. So, we do help Start-Ups, SMEs and corporations to scale up their processes, biotech processes, up to the commercial level that they want to make sure that they either go to a CMO or build their own plant.
00:20:40:22 – 00:21:04:01
Esthèle Goure
So, the 160 employees is quite consequent, but it's not enough to make sure that all the technologies are going to the market, but the creation of employment and so on. We see it from Start-Ups, for instance, and the SMEs that are growing like AmphiStar. When we ended the project, they were five, and now 25.
00:21:04:03 – 00:21:24:23
Esthèle Goure
So those numbers are quite consistent. And same for tripleW. Building their own plants means that they need to employ operators, technicians and so on and so forth. So that's really concrete. And that's thanks to the investment in European projects, but also the technology readiness that is moving on. So that's quite nice.
00:21:25:00 – 00:21:37:20
Anthony Lockett
Okay. And, Ivar, you mentioned the Raiku products are commercially available, can you give us an idea of what kind of workforce you have, what kind of, economic dividends your business brings in?
00:21:38:00 – 00:21:56:07
Ivar Palk
Yeah. Compared to the others, we are like a pretty small group. We have like 20 people. From there, like ten of us are engineers. So yeah, we’re still young in that sense.
00:21:56:09 – 00:21:58:09
Anthony Lockett
And how young is the company?
00:21:58:09 – 00:22:01:00
Ivar Palk
The idea started like four years ago.
00:22:01:01 – 00:22:03:07
Anthony Lockett
Okay. So quite recent.
00:22:03:07 – 00:22:15:23
Ivar Palk
So, first year, as we started from scratch, there wasn't any such technology before, it took a lot of time to figure it out, like how to make it.
00:22:16:00 – 00:22:20:00
Anthony Lockett
And are there plans to bring the business to a next level?
00:22:20:02 – 00:22:41:19
Ivar Palk
Yeah. They're scaling up right now. So we have peak demand. But we also need to fulfill that demand as well. So, we’re increasing production. And also, in the next couple of years, we're planning to expand to, for example, the France as well, where it's like a big luxury market.
00:22:41:21 – 00:22:49:23
Anthony Lockett
And what would be the biggest challenge there is? Is it finding infrastructure or capital or the right talent to help grow your business?
00:22:50:00 – 00:23:05:01
Ivar Palk
Yes. Just increasing that production, getting the new machinery. Because otherwise the machineries, they’re pretty modular. We can scale up and that it's you know, unique in that way. But, yeah, just growing up.
00:23:05:03 – 00:23:26:12
Anthony Lockett
Okay, okay. One last question for the three of you. If you could just summarise in one sentence, how you would encourage people, what kind of positive message you would send out to people out there? To encourage them to consider circular solutions? What would it be in a nutshell? Mattia, would you care to go first?
00:23:26:14 – 00:24:04:08
Mattia Comotto
Yeah. I start from what Esthèle just said. Waste is not waste until it is wasted. So, certainly, one topic, each of us could work on the regulation side. Because we should avoid that product ends up as a waste. It can be used as a new resource, or secondary raw material for the production of circular products. That's certainly one key topic.
00:24:04:10 – 00:24:07:16
Anthony Lockett
Thank you very much. Esthèle, do you have something to add?
00:24:07:18 – 00:24:31:17
Esthèle Goure
Yeah. I will stay positive. I can assure you that there is growth beyond circularity and that there is employment. And there is excitement behind the technology because, indeed, we are not making, like AI or robots, but the technology is quite innovative, quite strong, and I think it's worth digging a bit more and investing a bit more, indeed.
00:24:31:19 – 00:24:33:13
Anthony Lockett
Thanks a lot, Esthèle. And Ivar?
00:24:33:17 – 00:24:50:06
Ivar Palk
I think we shouldn't be afraid of trying out new products and things. If you are a consumer, decision maker in companies, don’t be afraid to try it out and give it a chance. Who knows, maybe you will start liking it.
00:24:50:08 – 00:25:24:07
Anthony Lockett
Thanks very much for those positive concluding words. Thanks very much to our guests for joining us, and to you for listening to this episode. Follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and check out the podcast homepage on the Cordis website. You can subscribe to make sure the hottest research and EU funded science isn't passing you by, and you can find more information and project examples on the Cordis website, on the European Commission's Research and Innovation website and in our online magazine, Horizon. We'll include the links in the show notes for this episode.
Bringing a circular economy closer
This special episode of CORDIScovery comes to you from the EU’s Research and Innovation Days(opens in new window). How can we reassure consumers of the safety and health benefits of products made from waste? What are the challenges when it comes to scaling up production to commercial levels? And how can we encourage people to use waste as a resource and embrace innovative technologies? Our guests, all of whom have benefited from research and innovation funding, explore the best ideas to help a transition to a circular economy. Mattia Comotto, head of circular economy and sustainability at Aquafil Group, focuses on using bio-based ingredients from sugars, including sugar beets and sugar cane, to produce sustainable plastics across various sectors. He coordinated the EFFECTIVE project. The RAIKU bio packaging project is coordinated by Ivar Palk. It aims to use wood as a natural, biodegradable packaging material compared to plastics, achieving efficient energy and water use and leveraging offcuts from sustainable sources. The WASTE2FUNC project, managed by Esthèle Goure, focuses on converting food and agricultural waste into biosurfactants and lactic acid for consumer products, offering an alternative to fossil-based surfactants.
Happy to hear from you!
If you have any feedback, we’re always happy to hear from you! Send us any comments, questions or suggestions to: editorial@cordis.europa.eu.
Keywords
Countries
Belgium, Estonia, Slovenia